Reorganization Planning Committee Meeting

15 November 2007

DRAFT Minutes

Present:  Facilitator Bill Ferm, Chair Gail Marshall, Vice-Chair Brian Hubbell

Bar Harbor:  Paul Murphy, Bob Garland (arrived at 7:30 p.m.) 

Mount Desert:  Jeff Smith 

Southwest Harbor:  Amy Young, Skip Strong 

Tremont:  Amy Murphy

Others in attendance:  Rob Liebow, Nancy Thurlow, Patrick Barter, Selena Dunbar

Commencement of Meeting

Gail Marshall called the meeting to order at 7:07 p.m.

Review of Draft Minutes from 7 November 2007

The minutes were not reviewed.

Discussion of Public Forum

Jeff Smith – Thought Gail Marshall did a good job at setting a nice tone for the meeting.  He wanted to note that nobody at MDES thinks they do a better job than anybody else.  They have to pay more because of the declining enrollment.  In a comparable school the amount per student is close.  The real luxury at their school is that they spend a lot on counseling and other programs like that. 

Paul Murphy – It is only Bar Harbor that is more than half the per pupil cost.  Bar Harbor is now in the $10,000 -$11,000 range.  It is cheaper per pupil to educate more students than fewer students.  Some people thought that he meant Tremont wasn’t spending enough, but that is not what he meant.  In a Model 5 scenario if the cost shifts to Bar Harbor, so do the purse strings.  Voters in Bar Harbor are no less interested than those in Mount Desert when faced with a disparity in per pupil cost like that.  There will end up being cuts in budgets or closing schools.

Gail Marshall – Noted that Southwest Harbor has chosen to replace Anne Napier with Kristin Hutchins to be on the RPC and welcomed her.

Kristin Hutchins – The only negative comment she heard about the public meeting was that there was some feeling that this committee has violated the spirit of the law by trying to maintain what we have.  She pointed out to the people that made the comment that we tried to address the issues before the law was passed and are now trying to comply as best we can.

Gail Marshall – We are not attempting to do anything that the law will not allow us to do.  We are trying to proceed the way our communities want us to.  When in Augusta, legislators and the commissioner have all said we are fortunate to have our schools run the way they do.  Not all systems function the way we do.  We are already operate in a consolidated manner.

Jeff Smith – The consensus was that the public are pleased with what the committee has done.  Last night explained better what costs mean.  Thinks people understand better the state is  “taking our lunch money.”

Approval of Plan Contents

20-A M.R.S.A. § 1461.3  Submission of plans.   Each school administrative unit shall submit to the commissioner its proposed reorganization plan for consolidation into a regional school unit that meets the requirements of paragraphs A and B.

A.  A reorganization plan must include:

(1) The units of school administration to be included in the proposed reorganized regional school unit.

Comments: 
Rob said it will include the four SAU’s on the main island, the high school SAU, and possibly the outer islands.  He is waiting for an answer from the state.  He is hoping the outer islands can sign on to our unit and then if they  vote it down they can become exempt again.  The state thinks that can happen but he is waiting for word from the attorney general.  He doesn’t want them to sign on and then vote it down and find out they will be penalized.

Thoughts were to put an asterisk by islands, and say “pending answer from state”, or to write that in the last section.  We also need to mention that Trenton and Lamoine are not listed in our plan because it is our understanding that they are filing a plan to remain on their own.   We don’t want it to be construed to say that if Trenton and Lamoine want to join us that we just go ahead and let them in without voting.  A suggestion was to say “should Trenton and Lamoine be unsuccessful with their plan, we will welcome them back to negotiations.”  That could weaken their position with the state.   It was agreed to say “It is our understanding that Trenton and Lamoine are filing their own plans.”

(2) The size, composition and apportionment of the governing body;
Comments: 
Rob Liebow said there would be 17 voting members - 6 from Bar Harbor,

3 from Mount Desert, 3 from Southwest Harbor, 2 from Tremont, 1 from Swan’s Island, 1 from Cranberry, and 1 from Frenchboro.

Gail Marshall – If the principle is one person, one vote, the chips are going to fall where they may.

Discussed how many board members will be elected and how many will actually vote.   We have to go by the formula.  17 voting members, but this could change depending on whether the outer islands are in or out.  We need to say where we determine that more members will be elected (to get our local boards). 

Brian Hubbell – Aren’t we electing our 5 local members and then leaving apportionment of voting up to them?

Skip Strong – We would elect members for the RSU but then let members of the town decide who will vote.

Brian Hubbell – This comes up in powers and duties of local boards.

Gail Marshall – We will be electing many people to the RSU board, but not all of them will have voting power.

A lengthy discussion followed regarding how many members should be on the board, how the voting works, and who will be allowed to vote.  A suggestion was made to state that there are active voting members and active non-voting members. 

Another suggestion was to propose to the legislature that we be released from the 2% rule (“A plan may not permit the voting power of any director to exceed by more than 2% the percentage of voting power the director would have if all 1,000 votes were apportioned equally among the directors.”)

If the 2% is a barrier for us, we could advocate to the legislators that we would like it changed.  It seems clear that it is a problem and should be noted or omitted in the plan.  To follow the one person one vote principle, particularly if the outer islands are taken out, to comply with 2% we end up having to flood the board with Bar Harbor members.

     The committee agreed that this is a struggle for them.

(3) The method of voting of the governing body;
Comment:  Weighted votes.

(4) The composition, powers and duties of any local school committees to be created;
Comments:

General rule is that we are going to create a system that gives authority to local boards, without saying that.   How do we want to deal with flexibility in plan? 

By saying “We reserve the right to… or among these is the right for… communities to consolidate as they see fit.”  Wording was discussed. 

Brian Hubbell – This is an authority that you want to specifically give to local boards. 

He thinks we just add that at the end of the list.  “Giving local boards the authority to …”

Gail Marshall – Suppose Tremont and Southwest Harbor want to change the nature of how they do business.  We want to be sure we create a situation in which they can combine local school boards, budgeting, or operations, if they want to.

Jeff Smith – Individual communities should be able to maintain the right to form agreements that would be beneficial to the individual communities.

Gail Marshall – All will have the caveat stating “pending advice from counsel”.

  There was further discussion regarding the wording of this section.

Rob Liebow spoke to Dick Spencer today.  Still struggling with how much of the powers and duties related to money.  That has got to be with the RSU  because local boards will not be recognized.  Just a caution that we can’t say everything for local boards, we have to say RSU.

Gail Marshall – Sole discretion will be left up to the community affected.

Paul Murphy – If the RSU floats a bond on behalf of Bar Harbor and Bar Harbor leaves the RSU holding the bag, all members of the RSU get left with the debt. 

Brian Hubbell – That is one more reason we should retain ownership of buildings within municipalities.

Jeff Smith – Maybe we should leave this point moot.  Say we are looking at ways that this plan may potentially evolve.

Gail Marshall – The whole purpose for putting this in front of the commissioner now is this #4.  We want to get her seal of approval to drive K-8 schools through.  We are hoping to have a live discussion with the commissioner and talk this out.  We may request a Private and Special Act for bonding issues.

(5) The disposition of real and personal school property;

Comment:  Elementary schools are staying with their towns.  MDIHS is going to be with the RSU.

(6) The disposition of existing school indebtedness and lease-purchase obligations if the parties elect not to use the provisions of section 1506 regarding the disposition of debt obligations;

Comments:  Everyone is keeping what they own.  The high school is with the RSU.  Rob Liebow – You would take the high school out of the CSD and put it in the RSU.  Indebtedness will now be shared with the outer islands, not just the four towns who were originally in the RSU.

Lengthy discussion about costs for transportation with outer island students who come to MDIHS.  Why would they want to join if everyone is not going to help pay for transportation? 

Gail Marshall – We may need one night for this committee to discuss outer island issues and try to work these out.

(7) The assignment of school personnel contracts, school collective bargaining agreements and other school contractual obligations;

Comments:  School personnel contracts and school collective bargaining agreements become RSU contracts and agreements.  Other school contractual obligations remain with local schools.

Skip Strong – The only place money is going to flow in and out of is the RSU.

     Rob Liebow – With teachers, this had to do with heavy lobbying by MEA. 

Brian Hubbell – Assuming that local boards can hire, what is the problem in having all of the employees be with the RSU?

Gail Marshall – It’s okay as long as the decision stays with K-8.

Skip Strong – All the local school boards are going to do the hard work.  They will make recommendations to the RSU.  Wording could be “the RSU shall approve the recommendation from the local boards.”

(8) The disposition of existing school funds and existing financial obligations, including undesignated fund balances, trust funds, reserve funds and other funds appropriated for school purposes;

Comment:  Disposition will stay with the local boards and the high school stays with the RSU.

(9) A transition plan that addresses the development of a budget for the first school year of the reorganized unit and interim personnel policies;

Comment:  to follow…

(10) Documentation of the public meeting or public meetings held to prepare or review the reorganization plan;

Comment:  Minutes and audio mp3’s of meetings.

(11) An explanation of how units that approve the reorganization plan will proceed if one or more of the proposed members of the regional school unit fail to approve the plan;

Comments:

Brian Hubbell – I think we cover three scenarios, with or without the islands, and I don’t think we said that the plan doesn’t carry unless the 4 towns approve.  There is no provision for forming the RSU with 3 out of the 4 towns. 

Paul Murpy – Suppose we don’t come to agreement on the funding formula.  That could kill the whole plan.

Brian Hubbell – Then we all become non-conforming SAU’s and pay the penalties.

Rob Lieobw – Non-conforming SAU’s start paying penalties July 1, 2009 and then will be reorganized into an RSU.  Mount Desert will be called an RSU – a non-complying small time RSU. 

Brian Hubbell – The high school private and special act is not repealed by this law, so unless it is superseded, it continues.

Rob Liebow – Not really sure, but since you’re not expressly extinguished you would continue until you are flushed out and still exist.  Then the state would try to extinguish you.

Jeff Smith – If Mount Desert becomes a small RSU then the big RSU as the high school would take Mount Desert students.

Rob Liebow – If you didn’t have school choice before, we don’t have to take you.

Skip Strong – The high school funding formula stays.  Until parties agree to change

the private and special act it survives, until the legislature turns the lights out. 

Kristin Hutchins – Wouldn’t it be completely counterproductive for the legislature to extinguish the private and special act?

Brian Hubbell – He is still unsure why we would want to make intermediate provisions in the plan between MDI towns joining together or all towns becoming non-conforming.  With the alternative that if the plan doesn’t get approved we will all be non-conforming.  Write down the 2 scenarios we suppose will happen.

Gail Marshall – What you are advocating is that one town can sink the ship.

Brian Hubbell – That would take us back to having to devise a new plan.

Amy Young – If the plan gets shot down by the voters, we’re going to be dealing with different legislators, or we’ll be clear as to what we want in the private and special act.

Jeff Smith – We have four very co-equal parts.  He would like to see the committee write into the plan that if someone doesn’t join, the rest will continue.

(12) An estimate of the cost savings to be achieved by the formation of a regional school unit and how these savings will be achieved; and

Comment:  The committee is unclear of the savings that will be achieved from the reorganization process.

(13) Such other matters as the governing bodies of the school administrative units in existence on the effective date of this chapter may determine to be necessary.

Rob Liebow – We know we’re going to get to the funding formula again.  In a study of the valuations the same arguments are going to come up.  He is not sure that the picture we had 2 or 3 years ago are the same as they are today.  He talked to John Brushwein and he is willing to come talk about how this would all work now.  Then there would be present day figures.  Mr. Liebow is asking for approval to decide if the committee wants to go ahead and have Mr. Brushwein do a study with today’s figures.

MOVED by Brian Hubbell and seconded by Amy Murphy to approve Mr. Liebow to ask Mr. Brushwein to research present day figures for the committee.

This is a necessary exercise we are going to have to go through and the only way we will reach a conclusion is that before we talk about actual numbers we have to decide what the fairest result is.   We can all agree in principle. 

Skip Strong – But this body has no money to pay for a study.

Rob Liebow – It has some money.  RPC itself receives $2,500 and each individual SAU receives legal advice.  Cost would be 2 days, $40 per hour, plus travel, potential of $1,000 to $1,500 to update work. 

Jeff Smith – The subject has to come up and the facts don’t really correlate to fairness.  He personally thinks middle ground should be reached.  He favors a formula based on 50% valuation and 50% enrollment.  Seems to be inherent fairness, doesn’t know why it didn’t happen.  He thinks if Mount Desert was offered a 50/50 deal they would be able to live with that.  Mount Desert would never favor the per pupil cost.  Fairness and finances don’t mix.

Paul Murphy – This is not the time to discuss what the best solution is.  What we’re talking about is laying the ground work for a discussion.  Making the data that this discussion is going to refer to current will take away the argument that the data is old. Thinks having that work done is element of that conversation.  Strongly advocates that if we feel Mr. Brushwein would be objective then he would be the right person for the job.

Kristin Hutchins wants to see the data updated.

Jeff Smith  would not like to see 50/50 mentioned. 

Rob Lieobw said he would not be asking Mr. Brushwien to make presentations, just asking him to update the data. 

Paul Murphy called the question.

All in favor of calling the question.

Gail Marshall - All those in favor of contracting with Mr. Brushwein to update the data.

All were in favor.

Next Meeting Date: 28 November 2007 at 7:00 p.m. in the high school library

Adjournment: MOVED by Paul Murphy, seconded by Amy Murphy and unanimously voted to adjourn the meeting at 8:42 p.m.

Respectfully submitted,

Selena Dunbar, Recording Secretary